Islam and Corporal Punishment, Are we at an evolutionary dead end?

Is this a legitimate area for ijitihad? If so, what if any classic juristic works can we point to that may be the foundation for post-corporal punishment society?

If not, or are we at an evolutionary dead end?

BTW ,why do you feel need for ijtihaad for corporeal punishments ??


Asad

BTW ,why do you feel need for ijtihaad for corporeal punishments ??


Asad

I guess I would turn your question on its head. Why do we need corporal punishment? I'm assuming since corporal punishment is widely accepted and practice in many Muslim societies (of course, not just Muslim societies) there seems to be an implicit and perceived need for it. And the practice gets much if not all of its justification in Islamic law.

This post has been edited by Bashar on Oct 13 2009, 08:30 PM

BTW ,why do you feel need for ijtihaad for corporeal punishments ??


Asad

I guess I would turn your question on its head. Why do we need corporal punishment? I'm assuming since corporal punishment is widely accepted and practice in many Muslim societies (of course, not just Muslim societies) there seems to be an implicit and perceived need for it. And the practice gets much if not all of its justification in Islamic law.

Brother !
Then do not hide your intention in the word of "ijtihaad". Be straightforward and say "We do not accept Quranic Corporeal punishments".

Playing with words with some particular intention in the mind is not fair brother.

Well ,you are at liberty to reject the whole Quran.It is as simple but it is not possible for any muslim.

Asad

BTW ,why do you feel need for ijtihaad for corporeal punishments ??


Asad

I guess I would turn your question on its head. Why do we need corporal punishment? I'm assuming since corporal punishment is widely accepted and practice in many Muslim societies (of course, not just Muslim societies) there seems to be an implicit and perceived need for it. And the practice gets much if not all of its justification in Islamic law.

Brother !
Then do not hide your intention in the word of "ijtihaad". Be straightforward and say "We do not accept Quranic Corporeal punishments".

Playing with words with some particular intention in the mind is not fair brother.

Well ,you are at liberty to reject the whole Quran.It is as simple but it is not possible for any muslim.

Asad

1) I'm not hiding my intentions. And despite your knee-jerk response I won't accuse you of hiding your intentions (whatever they may be).

2) Perhaps you're participating in this forum from the USA, in which case you are quite aware that much of what is considered "Quranic corporal punishments" is largely an abstract affair in the day to day lives of Muslims living in America or in any other part of the West. No one in our society will support lashings, stonings, and what have you as punishments. So, the question is theoretical in nature: if indigenous Muslims were a political majority in America (not a numerical majority or even close to it) with the power to legislate and enforce law, would there be grounds for Muslim scholars to suspend hudud penalities? Could the unique cultural and historical circumstances of the population Muslims are governing be rendered an "exceptional" circumstance?

If you don't want to answer then don't. But please refrain from misrepresenting the nature of the question.

This post has been edited by Bashar on Oct 14 2009, 10:57 AM

Reasoning is a great thing but cannot be used in the certain areas of Islam. For instance, how can we present "reasoning" for 5 salats/namazs, or Ramadan.

Ijtihad is Qiyas and what I believe has a brain of a human. In Fiqh, however
Qiyasis significantly used to come to a conclusion.

BTW ,why do you feel need for ijtihaad for corporeal punishments ??


Asad

I guess I would turn your question on its head. Why do we need corporal punishment? I'm assuming since corporal punishment is widely accepted and practice in many Muslim societies (of course, not just Muslim societies) there seems to be an implicit and perceived need for it. And the practice gets much if not all of its justification in Islamic law.

Brother !
Then do not hide your intention in the word of "ijtihaad". Be straightforward and say "We do not accept Quranic Corporeal punishments".

Playing with words with some particular intention in the mind is not fair brother.

Well ,you are at liberty to reject the whole Quran.It is as simple but it is not possible for any muslim.

Asad

1) I'm not hiding my intentions. And despite your knee-jerk response I won't accuse you of hiding your intentions (whatever they may be).

2) Perhaps you're participating in this forum from the USA, in which case you are quite aware that much of what is considered "Quranic corporal punishments" is largely an abstract affair in the day to day lives of Muslims living in America or in any other part of the West. No one in our society will support lashings, stonings, and what have you as punishments. So, the question is theoretical in nature: if indigenous Muslims were a political majority in America (not a numerical majority or even close to it) with the power to legislate and enforce law, would there be grounds for Muslim scholars to suspend hudud penalities? Could the unique cultural and historical circumstances of the population Muslims are governing be rendered an "exceptional" circumstance?

If you don't want to answer then don't. But please refrain from misrepresenting the nature of the question.

Islamic punishments are likely to be imposed where there is islamic state with absolutely islamic constituition.
I am least bothered if someone likes it or not. Whether society is comfortable with it or not.
Quranic verdict is "Final" for any muslim till the Day of judgement.
Nowadays Sunna Rejecters (you may be aware of this movement) are trying their level best
1:Change the Quranic words like removing certain verses from the Quran
2:Twist the Quranic meanings
3:To justify the prostituition
4:To prove the Quranic punishments as inhuman.
5:To diapprove Sunna and Prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

So no wonder if see such statements from different corners.
Regards

Just to add my two cents, the way I understand the question, it seems what is being asked is if the punishments found in the Qur'an [and by extension the Hadeeth literature and the precedents of the early rulers] are still applicable in today's world, especially so in a world where Islam is not the source of law.

If that understanding is correct, It seems prudent to, first and foremost, determine exactly which Hodood punishments are being discussed, and from what source do we get these punishments.


Then, it seems prudent to classify what punishments are given in the main source, the most important source, the words of Allah Subbhanaahu wa Ta'alaa. For example, the Qur'an clearly mentions a punishment for adultery [Zina][Q 24:2]. Yet, it gives the almost impossible demand for four witnesses in order to even bring the charge to the attention of the authorities. Such condition shows that Allah wants to preserve the public health/morals, and also to maintain the dignity and respect of all involved. A punishment would only be in extreme circumstances [after all, very few people would engage in such behavior when an audience is present]. We can't deny the presence of a punishment, but at the same time we have to understand the conditions, set forth by Allah himself in the Qur'an.

That being said, it is also telling that the punishments, with some notable exceptions, are somewhat vague. The Qur'an mentions a stern punishment for those who "spread chaos" [Fasaad fil Ard], but what constitutes Fasaad seems to be mainly in the eyes of the authorities.

In traditional Fiqh, there is a term called Ta'zeer, meaning the judge/society can determine rulings and punishments on things that are not mentioned in Islamic sources. For example, fines for speeding.


What I'm trying to say is that we have much more freedom in Islam than usually imagined. The punishments that appear in the texts are mostly for extreme issues, and for the protection of the society's citizens and morals.

WaLLAAhu A'laam.

Wassalaam,
S.Waheed

Jazakallah khairen, Bro. Shamsuddin. Yes, you captured the essential thrust of the question. I want to stay with adultery for the discussion purposes, at least for the moment. Here are two additional considerations I would introduce: (1) the conditions set down in the Qur'an that make it ostensibly difficult to accuse someone of adultery, let alone find them guilty and then lash them, must be weighed against the propensity for misuse and abuse in actual practice (e.g. women are disproportionately impacted. The Magna Carta was supposed to limit the power of the King but in practice it did not). In other words, the human (and political) dimension of the process often overwhelms and swallows up divine intent. (2) in regard to the concept of ta'azeel and the idea that corporal punishments represent extreme cases and should be used at a last resort, how does historical and moral context of administering 100 lashings factor into considering alternative punishments and giving them Islamic legitimacy? For example, prisons weren't around in 7th century tribal Arabia so wouldn't prison and stiff monetary fines be just as effective an deterrent while preserving human dignity?

Again, thanks for moving the discussion forward.

In my opinion, these kinda hoops that lays blame, accusations, perplexities, dis-contents are "done" to give a shiver to Moslems and to make them fight among each other. The second thing is to limit our horizon and "stop" thinking ahead.

The sunnah of Prophet Mohammad s.a.w.w., the ahadiths and the Glorious Qur'an are beyond question.

Brother !the following article is just a small piece of Sunna Rejecters agenda:

http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/we...314123119145738


Asad

I want to encourage those who are posting comments to try and stay on topic. The topic is "Islam and Corporal Punishment", specifically whether there is an Islamic argument to made for suspending corporal punishment indefinitely. We are not discussing "hadeeth rejectors", though that is an interesting topic in itself.

Tariq Ramadhan is a well-known Muslim intellectual and writer who is anything but an hadeeth rejector. He published a widely circulated essay calling for an international moratorium on corporal punishment across the board. Islamonline, a promoter of hadeeth rejection I think not, published Tariq's essay on its site. I post the link here in hopes it will invite intelligent comment.


Moratorium on Corporal Punishment

OK,

Here's an excerpt from Tariq Ramadhan essay which goes to heart of my enquiry in a much more eloquent and forceful fashion.

A call, some questions

I underlined the questions/comment I think are compelling enough to make central to this discussion. If anyone can enlighten me with a thoughtful reply or commentary I'd be very grateful.

BTW, someone mentioned that the application of these penalities would occur in a "Islamic State" with a "absolutely Islamic constitution". That raises the question concerning not only the historical reality of an Islamic State but also it desiribility.
(see Professor Na'im's Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a)

This post has been edited by Bashar on Oct 16 2009, 12:45 PM

He rejects Hadiths as per you. Why is he rejecting Death Penalty ? Does he want to reject the Quran also which is the actual hidden agenda of these Sunna Rejecters.

Asad