Must the (page,surah,ayah) numbers in Qur'an be fixed?

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Is there a contradiction in Arabic Language, being a BiDirectional Language?...?

Languages such as Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Hebrew, and Yiddish are referred to as bidirectional (or BiDi) because text is written from right to left, while embedded texts in 'Western' languages and numbers are written from left to right.

Now, can this be called a contradiction, or discrepancy? If so, why do we carry this contradiction into Holly Quran? Since there can't be any contradiction in Holy Quran, can't we fix all the numbers in Quran pages with Veyselic Numbers?

Note: Veyselic Numbers are Arabic Numbers, written from right to left. For example; In Veyselic Numbers, number ten is .I

Nisa-82: Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

More info about Veyselic Numbers:
Search for the words "Veyselic Numbers" in the WEB.


What brough this idea up? Veyselic Numbers
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It is a bit long story.

2 years ago I got a manic-depressive (manic attack), and first at that time this idea came to me. In fact, I got so excited that I went insane. After that I got a 23 day treatment in a hospital, etc, etc.
Now, let me go further:
How many is Allah?
1

Then so that Allah is 1, what number do you assign to creatures? -1,2,0.0001? No.
0

Allah is 1. The first number is 1. When you will write 2, in binary numbers, a second number called 0 comes to stage. When there are two numbers on stage, the issue of "who is commander, superior, and who is subordinate, less significant" comes to stage. Since (according to Holly Qur'an) right hand side is more superior to left hand side, the zero has to come to left of 1 in the lining. So we must write as binary two (decimal ten) as 01 (Opposite of usual !!!).

As a summary: When you'll write ten in decimal numbers (and two in binary numbers), 1 must be at the right, and zero must accept the greatness of 1, and zero must stand on the left. We must write 01 (.1)

I call this Veyselic numbers.

The Satan is represented by zero, the Caliph (Adam Aleyhisselam) of Allah may be represented by 1. Then when these two numbers come together, they must be written as 01. Most significant numbers must be on the right, least on the left. Numbers must be written from right to left.

Now: It is too hard to change all the numbers in the world. But I have dream! The correct numbers, Veyselic Numbers, can be used in Qur'an pages. Qur'an can finish the fight of which is superior;
Right
or
Left
Satan must bow in front of Caliph. All numbers in the Qur'an pages can be corrected with Veyselic Numbers. This is a symbolic fight, between Caliph and Satan, between people of left and people of right. Qur'an cannot be bidirectional, bidirectional is cotradiction. In fact numbers are added to it afterwards. Arabs could not resist Hindus, made a big mistake, and make their language bidirectional.

Creatures must prostrate to Allah.
Satan must accept the graetness of The Caliph of Allah.
0 must stand at the left of 1.
If zero decides to try to pass to the right of 1, it will burn. It burns, as Satan is created from fire.

Let us clean the "Bidi" from Quran pages. Let us change all the numbers so that they START FROM THE RIGHT, not left. Because the current situation is not right. I belive sooner or later Holly Qur'an pages will be corrected with Veyselic Numbers, inshallah

In binary numbers, there is only two digits: 1 and 0.

Lets read the 112/1-2. Surah(Ikhlas). It says:
Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on Whom all depend.

I am saying that, Allah can be symbolized by 1, all the others(creatures and not-created things) may be symbolized with zero.

1 is an odd number, while zero is an even number.

(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...012246AAdFGT9).

Lets read 51/49. Surah(Zariyat). It says:
Ve min kulli şey'in halakna zevceyni leallekum tezekkerun.
And of every thing We have created pairs: that ye may reflect.

All the creatures are pairs, i.e. they are even, not odd, like the number zero.

Now imagine that there is one and only 1("Ehad"), and many zeroes("Kesret"):
The zeroes cannot exist without the one(Samed).
The zeroes must be on the left of 1(According to Veyselic Numbers), meaning that they prostrate to Allah.
A zero burns, if it refuses to stand on the left of 1 and tries to go right (Remember, zeroes on the left disappears in "Arabic Numbers").

So in summary, I say that;
1 (which is an odd number) represents Allah,
0(which is an even number) represents creatures(including Satan),
Binary two (or decimal ten) must be represented as 01 (Or .I)
which I call Veyselic Numbers.

"Kul huwa Allahu Ehad". If you consider it with care, it is not mentioned as "Al Ehad", but only Ehad. Now other evidences as follows;

Header: Evidences that numerical 1 can represent Allah (Celle Celaluhu):
a) 1 is read as wahid in Arabic, and one of the names of Allah is Al Wahid.
The answer of question "How many is Allah?" is 1
c) 1 exists, Allah also exists. (1>0) (How about 2,3,4? Refer to i) )
d) 1 is singular, each and every other counting numbers are plural, Allah is singular.
e) 1 can mean as unique, Allah is also unique.
f) Counting and measuring are different. You can not measure Allah, because Allah is infinite. But the number of Ilahs is a limited number, 1, and the only ilah is Allah.
g) 1 is half of two, that is correct. If (hasha) there were another ilah other then Allah, then Allah would be half of the two ilahs, but there are not two ilahs, so, that suggestion is false.
h) Allah has no partners, and similars. But for creatures are not equal to each other, some of them are superior to some other. The superior ones are closer to Allah than the other. For example the Caliph of Allah. Because all the superior adjectives and names belong to Allah. From this respect, since men are superior than women, they are closer to Allah. If we assign numerals to men and women, we must do that like men=1, women=0. Evidences to it are as follows: Qur'an (4-34). 1 is odd, 0 is even number. Women are even because they can bear child. The Caliph of Allah is male. in Qur'an grammar, Allah uses male gender for himself. It is used female word "Saaheebaten" in ayet(72-3).
i) Allah is Wahid, 2,3,4 > 1, how do you explain this? As follows: You have to write the number in binary form, and from right to left. Take 2. It is equal to 01. The rightmost 1 symbolizes Allah, having value two(1 times 2 to the power 1). Likewise, all the numbers can be written in binary and from right to left. There is always a 1 at the rightmost place. For example 8, it is equal to 0001 (in Veyselic Numbers).
j) 1 is odd, 0 is even. 0 is nothing when it is itself. But when it comes next to 1, it obtains a value. Also when it comes next to 1, always even numbers occur. Creatures cannot exist by theirselves, they need Allah, and also they are even(they are pairs). Only the caliph of Allah is unique, is odd. The one that needs nothing is Allah, who is Samed.
k) 1'st reads as "first". One of names of Allah, El Evvel, means The First. If there is no number other than 1, 1 is also the last, like El Ahir.
l) El Afuvv is related with sins and faults, Es Settar is related with clothings, Er Razık is related with "Rizk", likewise El Wahid, Ehad is related with numbers.
m) According to the hands that creatures are created with: The Caliph (Adem aleyhisselam) is created with two hands. Qur'an says so. So if we number the two hands like 1 and 0, we can guess the following: Iblis is created with hand number 0, the angels are created with hand number 1, and the Caliph is created with hands 1 and 0. Hand 1 is most likely the right hand(yemiyn). Before Adem(aleyhisselam) teach the angels and Iblis that Iblis has a lower degree than each and every of the angels, they did not now it. If we want to explain it in terms of numbers, there were 0 and 1's but they did not not know which is greater than which. A person with two hands, two eyes and who is capable of distinguishing "Hayr"(goodness) and "Sher"(badness) is needed to distinguish and categorize them. That person is The Caliph of Allah, who is created with two hands. When Adem(aleyhisselam) told them their names(degrees), he said that: Angels are odd, 1, they do not have two genders, and they are in the side if "Hayr". Iblis is 0, even, Jinns have two genders(male, female), and iblis is even in that Iblis looks like "Mumin"(believer), but he is "Munafik", inside Iblis is "Kafir"(infidel), and being Kafir, in fact, his name is "Sheytan"(Satan). He said that One is greater than zero. ( 0 < 1 ). And after that angels are commanded to prostrate to Adam:
"Behold! We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam": they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns," (Qur'an 18/50)
If we try to explain it in terms of numbers, 1's are commanded to prostrate to 2. This solves the issue that "Why, being a jinn, Iblis, is kept responsible to an order given to angels?". The answer may be as follows: 1's are ordered to accept greatness of 2, 2 has already dictated that 1 is greater than 0, so, 0 is also obliged to accept greatness of 2.


A Question:
Why binary? as from its dhahir, binary could only prove duality within religion.. which we all know is not Islam.. so why binary?
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Duality of ilahs? Hasha no one can say or prove that. La ilahe illa Allah. That is it.

But if you say that "La mevcude illa huwe", I object it, because;
(Hicr-15/85): Ve ma halaknes semavati vel erda ve ma beynehüma illa bil hakk.
And We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them two but in truth.

If we accept the existence of creatures, and want to assign them a number, it is most likely zero. Because zero is nothing without a one. If 1 exists and says that zero exists, then it exists. Also zero is an even number, so that the creatures because they are created as pairs.

Also;
(51/39) And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.

Pairs and opposites can be represented by 2 numbers, 1 and 0. For example male=1, female=0, day=1, night=0,big=1, small=0, white=1, black=0, right=1, left=0

Also Caliph has been created by two hands. According to me, Allah has two hands. Hand number 0, hand number 1. Allah has two hands but he is one person. Also Caliph has two hands but he is one person.

Here comes the important point; Symbolically the believers are keeping their right hand superior, meaning that they are 01, on the other hand infidels are keeping their left hand superior, meaning that they are 10 . As I said, it is symbolically.

Also all the numbers can be expressed as binary.

When we express numbers in decimal form, number ten is the ten fingers in two hands. If we are writing ten in decimal, I am insisting that we must write it as 01
It is much too hard if not impossible to convert the numbers, but it is easier to correct the numbers in Holly Qur'an's pages to Veyselic Numbers.

I hope this thread will be a starting point insaAllah. My purpose is every time you see a number ten in Qur'an pages, it will irritate you by making you remember that Satan opposes to prostrate The Caliph.

Welcome to Islam in View. I pray that you will find this forum and our members very stimulating to your mind and soul, as I have.

You have made a very interesting argument, but in all honesty I really don't know if the Quranic verse numbers must be fixed.

The debate that many scholars have entered over the centuries about the Faatihah itself essentially involves this question.

Many believe the Basmala is not a verse [Ayah] but simply a headline or an introduction. This is one reason why some people, such as the Hanafis, do not recite the Basmala in their prayers.

Also, the last verse is sometimes divided into two verses [the second starting "Ghayril Magdoobee 'Alayhim wa lad-Daa-l-leen"].

It's a very complex issue. I will think about it before I vote on it.

I live in Cleveland, Ohio [USA] and am currently watching the debate between Barack Obama and Sen.Hillary Clinton, so I will get back to that.




S.Waheed

I finally got a chance to examine in detail what you have proposed. It seems that the idea is to change the way the numbers are given in the Qur'an in order to reflect a binary system, and that certain figures given in the Qur'an, such as Adam, Satan and Allah himself are to be assigned a numerical figure, is that correct?

If I have understood your argument correctly, I think we have to be very careful about saying something about the Qur'an that is not clear, or that is not supported by the Qur'an itself.

Scholars of the past have discussed rather briefly the numbering of verses. Sometimes, they differ as to a certain line or phrase should stay in one verse or be read as an introduction to the next. Moreover, in a single verse itself, should we stop at a certain point, such as in Surah 3:6, or keep reading without stop?

Although the current system may be argued to be arbitrary, and despite the fact that I acknowledge that there have been disagreements among scholars to certain aspects of verse numbering, I have voted in the poll "Yes" that the current system be kept and seen as a fixed system.

However, that does not stop an individual from reading in his or her own personal copy of the Qur'an the numbering as they see fit.

I would also like to share a recommendation for everyone to read Coherence of the Qur'an by Dr Mustansir Mir. This work explores the ideas of Pakistani scholars regarding the division of the Qur'an into 30 sections [Ajza'] and proposes that the text itself allows for no such division, but rather the entire Book is divided into different "pairs". It's a very interesting study.

Regards,
S.Waheed

Salaam,

First of all thank you for your kind answers.

In fact not comletely the way you said.
I am talking about the numbers on the pages of mushaf itself. They are in fact decimal, not binary.
Take a mushaf for example, open page ten, which digits do you see as page number?
I.
isn't is?
I defend that it must be written as:
.I
For an other example, after the one hundred seventy fifth verse, I want to see "oVI" digits ("571" in latin numerals)
I tried to explain its reasoning in previous post. Summarily, I assing number 1 to Allah (celle celaluhu). I assign number 0 to creatures. When these two numbers come together to write ten, 1 must be on the right, 0 must be on the left. Due to hands creatures created: Satan is created with hand number 0. Angels are created with hand number 1. Adam(AS) is created with both(01) hands.

I have to go on later.

Maas Salaam

Thanks for the response. I believe that I have a better understanding of your idea, but my question to you is how would changing the numbering sequence affect the overall message of the Qur'an?

How does this affect the understanding of the text itself?


Thanks again.

Regards,
S.Waheed

Thank you for your very relevant question.

Most of the non-muslims and some of the muslims do not differentiate hayr and sher, and their right and left. Arabs write from right to left, latins write from left to right. But when it comes to numbers, all write from left to right.

I try to find a mathematical model to Islamic entities. It helps understanding them.

For example:
(Qur'an 18/50) "Behold! We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam": they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns,"
Then, why, being a jinn, Iblis, is kept responsible to an order given to angels?
My answer is as follows: (According to hand numbers), 1's(angels) are ordered to accept greatness of 2(Adam(a.s.)), 2 has already dictated that 1(angels) is greater than 0(iblis), so, 0 is also obliged to accept greatness of 2.

0 is even, iblis is created by one hand but he is even(Munafik). Jinns have two genders.
1 is odd, angels are created by one hand and they are odd(has one gender).
2 is even, caliph is created by two hands, has two hands, (mankind has two genders), but he is one person.



Allah is 1, creatures are 0.
51/49. :"Ve min kulli şey'in halakna zevceyni leallekum tezekkerun.
And of every thing We have created pairs: that ye may reflect. "
0 is an even number. Creatures are created as pairs.

Lets read the 112/1-2. Surah(Ikhlas). It says:
Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on Whom all depend.
Mathematically, no matter how many zeroes, they do not exist without a 1
And here comes the critical point, if the one's having ability to select do not prostrate to Allah they will burn in the hell.
Mathematically, in Veyselic numbers, if a zero wants to pass to the right of the 1, it will burn(disappear).
But when you open Quran you see many many zeroes passing right of 1's. Nobody sees an inconvenience in it. Well I do.

If we succeed to fix Quran's numbers with Veyselic Numbers, there will be a huge sound and everybody will understand which one is superior;
Right
or
Left
And everybody will understand which one is superior;
Ashabul meymene
or
ashabul meş'eme

I repeat;
Creatures must prostrate to Allah.
Satan must accept the greatness of The Caliph of Allah.
0 must stand at the left of 1
If zero decides to try to pass to the right of 1, it will burn. It burns, as Satan is created from fire.

This is a symbolic fight between left and right. It seems to be muslims have failed till now. Satan penetrated not to text of Quran but to the pages Quran is written, pretending that it is a very normal thing. I say that it is abnormal. It should be fixed. I will try to fight about this subject till I die, inshallah.




This post has been edited by veyselicnumbers on Mar 3 2008, 04:24 PM

I have more questions as to the idea you have proposed.

Do the numbers you have assigned here have any textual support from the Qur'an itself? You say Adam was created by two hands, and Iblis [Satan] was created by one hand. From where do we get this sort of information?

This was an interesting observation of Surah Al-Ikhlas. Understandable.


As for the As-habul Maymanah and As-habul Mash-'amah, I have always understood these titles to be metaphorical, and I believe this is also the view of most traditionalists. It is true that eating with the right hand, etc.. are habits that are normal in Muslim culture [do to the habits of the Prophet ], but can we really apply this to Quranic numberings as well?

Traditionally, if two people are praying together, the Imam [prayer leader] will stand on the left, the second person on the right, toe to toe or to the Imam's heel [this varies from one Madh-hab to another]. Do you have the view that this has any bearings on the idea you have proposed ?

The book [Mus-haf] is just ink and paper. It was revealed as an oral scripture, meaning people memorized and recited it in prayers and on other important occasions. It was later on that it was put into a single volume, and it is indeed a blessing from Allah that despite the various sects and groups that exist among the Muslims, we all have the same Qur'an and refer to the same scripture.

Nonetheless, the Mus-haf is simply a written record of an oral recitation. The book that it is printed on is not, the pages, the binding, is not really that important in terms of understanding the message. I own many Masahif, printed by different publishers, and the pages are not the same. This is because one publisher may place more verses on one page and another publisher makes a different decision. I don't see that as having much relevance in the message and understanding of the word of God.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, however I simply haven't been convinced as of yet. At the same time, you could print the Qur'an if you wish, and number it as you see fit. Perhaps a physical example would be more appropriate for advancing your ideas, but the mental picture I have at the moment does not see such an action as causing a change in how I study and apply the Qur'an.




S.Waheed

Shukran (Thank you)

I realized that my subject sentence is misleading. It must be: Should we fix the numbers in Quran?

Mathematics is one of the sciences(ilms) and all the ilms belong to Allah. Binary numbers are part of mathematics. Binary numbers have only two digits, 1 and 0. When you are talking about two things, you can number them 1 and 0. Since right is superior than Left, Right is assigned to 1, left is assigned to 0.

The right and left are not only metaphorical, they are also physical and real. First of all As-habul Maymanah and As-habul Mash-'amah are expressions from Quran. This is enough evidence that right is superior than left. Secondly, I think that toe to toe prayer is the wrong one. The jemaat can not be at the same level with Imam. Their heels must be in the backward of Imam's heel. The Imam represents the first line. The line after Imam is the second line. And the lines are filled from right to left. So the second person stands in the rightmost position of the second line.
Some other evidences that right is superior to left:
a) When we clean ourselves before prayer, we always clean right parts(hands, feet) before left.
b) You put your right step first when you are entering masjeed.
c) In prayer(salat) we put right hand over left hand. We make salaam to the right side first, then the left side.

I want to show you a photo. A couple of years ago the current Pope visited Turkey. At that visit, he visited the famous SultanAhmed Mosque. There, he turned his face to Masjeedil Haraam, and said a little prayer, I think. But there is an important detail there, he did put his LEFT hand onto the RIGHT hand. I don't believe that it was an accident, I believe that it was on purpose.
Here is the photo:
http://www.pope.cjb.net

First of all;Quran (38-75) "He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?"

Secondy, I want to provide some samples about the relation between left/right and 0/1. Good and superior things are on the right.

. |
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0 1
Left Right
False True
Wrong Right
Kafir/Munafik Mumin(Believer)
Kufr Shukr(76-3)
Sher Hayr
Mevt/Adem Hayat
Baatil Haq
Hell Paradise
Weakness(Ankebut) Strongness
Maaglub Gaalib
Darkness Light
Black(faces) White


Now I want to ask some questions:
1. How many hands does Allah have?
2. Which hand of Allah are angels and Iblis created with?
3. 18-50 "And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn". So what about other jinns? Did they not exist at that time, or did they all also make obeisance to Adam(as), so that they are all mumins?
4. Which hand of Allah were te jinns created with?
5. What is the relation and difference between Iblis ans Satan?
6. 38-(73/74) "So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together: Not so Iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith(unbelievers).", Iblis did not prostrate and became unbeliever, so what was he before that, mumin?

Please stop here for a while and think if you have satisfactory answers to them. I will provide my assumptions about them.

My Answers:
1. In Quran, for Allah there are three types of expressions about hands:
a) Yemiyn(right hand) (39-67) (... and the heavens rolled up in His right hand)
b) Yedeyye(both hands) (38-75) (... to whom I created with My two hands?)
c) Eydinaa(Our Hands) (Hands(more than two, gramatically)) (36-71) (Do they not see that We have created cattle for them, out of what Our hands have wrought, so they are their masters? )
We understand from them that; Allah has right hand, Allah has at least two hands. What about the expression Eydinaa? I think that it is said in this way because plural version(We) is used in that verse. Since "we" is used, the hands became "Eydinaa". This does not show that Allah has more than two hands.

Suppose that Allah has hands more then two, if for example three hands exist, then;
i) What does "Yemiyn" mean, which of those hands is the right hand (yemiyn)?
ii) It should have been said "rightmost" instead of "right".
iii)Which two hands out of three was Adam created with?
iv) If three(or more) hands existed, then shouln't Adam have three hands, for he is Caliph of Allah?

Conclusion: Allah has two hands;Right hand(Hand number 1), and hand number 0.

2. Quran 38-75 "He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?" is the support to Adam's creation with two hands. From that we understand that Allah has two hands(see answer 1), and also it is impied that creation is done with hands. Now, since angels and and Iblis commanded to do obeisance(sejde) to Adam(a.s.), they have a lower degree, and since Allah orders angels to prostrate to Adam, and since Allah asks "what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands?", then angels and Iblis are created with less than two hands. Most likely they are created with one hand each. Iblis might most likely be created by hand number 0(I do not call hand number 0 as "left hand" here, in fact I believe hand number 0 is left hand, but some scholars said that Alah's both hands are right hands), because he is infidel(kafir), does bad things(Sher), and will be punished. Angels may most likely be created by hand number 1, the right hand, because they always do good and right things(Hayr). We know that Allah has a right hand, for Quran says 39-67 "... and the heavens rolled up in His right hand".

3. I am not sure. One answer may be: They existed at that time and they (except Iblis) prostrated to Adam, like angels. But. Some of them were mumins, and some of them were munafiks. All (except Iblis) prostrated. The munafiks continued to be munafiks, except Iblis who became Kaafir(infidel)(38-74).

...After thinking some time I changed my mind. I believe other jinns did not exist at that time. I understand this from the verses
(38-78) And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment.
(38-79) He said: My Lord! then respite me to the day that they are raised.
(38-80) He said: Surely you are of the respited ones,
(38-81) Till the period of the time made known.
(38-82) He said: Then by Thy Might I will surely make them live an evil life, all,
(38-83) Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.

Before the verse (38-82), only angels, Iblis and Adam were mentioned. Suddenly the tense becomes plural here(make them live an evil life). I think other jinns and other humans' souls are created at that moment or after that moment.

4. I don't know.

5. Iblis and Satan are the same person, but Iblis is the munafik name and Satan is the Kaafir name of him. Adam told them their names, then which name did he called for Iblis? Since he has two names, he said both of them and I think he said that Iblis is the Munafik Name and Satan is the Kaafir Name, because
(2-33) "He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?" . Now here comes a critical point, first of all I believe that Iblis was munafik(remember I assigned 0 to Iblis), he was pretending to be an angel(remember I assigned 1 to angels) and mumin. I said "pretend to be an angel" on purpose, because ;
Remember "Behold! We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam": they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns," (Qur'an 18/50)
There was a question "Why, being a jinn, Iblis, is kept responsible to an order given to angels?". One of the two answers of me to that question is that Iblis, which is munafik, pretended to be an angel, angels believed that he was also an angel. Because of that he is kept responsable. I think Adam said something like that: "Your name is Iblis, you are munafik, when you will become a Kaafir you'll get the name Satan." This I concluded from the expressions :

(2-33) "He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that.......I know what you manifest and what you hide(kuntum tektumuun)?"
- "Did I not say to you that........I know what you manifest and what you hide(kuntum tektumuun) " This implies that they are not only informd the names, but also the things that they hide inside.

The other answer is that Iblis is created with hand number 0, angels are created with hand number 1, Adam stated that 1>0, angels are superior to Iblis. And because angels are commanded to prostrate to Adam, therefore Iblis was also oliged too prostrate and accept the superiorness of Adam.

I think you are somewhat disregarding the importance of the written or printed book version of Quran. You give the emphasis only on memorizing it. But for me writing and reading is as important as memorizing it, and mus-haf is not a simple and unimportant thing;
1) The first verse and the first command of Allah is "Read!" (96-1)(Read in the name of your Lord Who created.)
Read:To examine and grasp the meaning of written or printed characters, words, or sentences.
2) In the third verse there is Kalem(pen). (96-3)(Who taught (to write) with the pen.)
Pen: An instrument for writing or drawing with ink or similar fluid.
3)
(56-77) That this is indeed a quran most honorable,
(56-78) In Book well-guarded,
(56-79) Which none shall touch but those who are clean:
(56-80) A Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.
Book: A set of written, printed, or blank pages fastened along one side and encased between protective covers.
Touch: To cause or permit a part of the body, especially the hand or fingers, to come in contact with so as to feel.
4) There were Kaatibul Wahy from the very beginning, they wrote down the verses as they come.
5) It is also a blessing from Allah that surah and verse numbers are kept. This might have been done by writing them I think, or they had memorised also

where a verse starts and ends.
6) Numbers are important. Where a verse starts and ends is important. Where a surah starts and ends is also important. They are kept strictly till today.
7) In fact after 70 Kurraa were killed in the war Siffin, the Quran is decided to put in a single volume, but before that it was also written, but parts were distributed.

So there is a Holy Book which is written by a pen and tought with the pen and can be read and can be touched only when you are clean. Doesn't this fit the definition of our mus-haf?

When someone wants your Holy Book, you give him mus-haf.

So Mus-haf in written or printed form is very important and is also Holy. Because of this we should fix the numbers in it.

Now, Please spend a short time and do the shortest IQ test that I invented, it is very much related with our subject:

SHORTEST IQ TEST:
-----------------
1. SELECT ONE:
A) RIGHT
B) LEFT
2. SELECT ONE:
A) 1
B) 0
3. SELECT ONE:
A) 1 is on the RIGHT
B) 0 is not on the LEFT

-----------------------
At the same time, you could print the Qur'an if you wish, and number it as you see fit.
-----------------------
I will not be satisfied if I print a Mus-haf as I wish. I will be satisfied when all the Qurans all over the World are fixed, because the numbers are wrong.

Regards,
VeyselicNumbers (Veysel Peru)

I have read over your last post a few times, in order to make sure I am understanding your ideas, and I would like to respond a bit to your observations:

What's to stop us from making a list of good and bad going from left to right? It seems a bit arbitrary. Regardless of whether As-habul Maymana and As-bah ul Mash-amah are metaphorical or not, those expressions don't really supply any evidence to suggest the numbers should be changed.

Interesting questions. For the first question, you were correct in the assertion that the Qur'an uses the expression "My two hands" in relation to the creation. You cited the text above. However, what does "hand" mean? The Qur'an also says that Allah's hands are over their hands [Yadullahi Faqwa Aydihim ] { 48:10}, does that have a literal meaning? One Hadeeth ascribed to the Prophet says that Allah's hand is over the [Muslim] community[Yadullahi 'alal- Jamaa'ah] {Sahih Muslim}.

Expressions such as "hand" are terms denoting ability and power. The usage throughout the Qur'an, and to a lesser extent the Hadeeth literature shows this. For another look at this, please read and feel to comment on my article "The Divine throne:an examination of Ayatul Kursiyy 2:255 http://islaminviewforum.com/index.php?showtopic=59

It does seem that the Qur'an implies that Jinns existed before Iblees, and that "those given respite" include some disobedient creatures before the creation of Adam. Jews and Christians believe that Satan was an angel prior to disobeying God, whereas the Qur'an shows that while Ibless [ known later as Shaytaan-Satan ] was perhaps in their company, he was a Jinn, and not an angel.

The Qur'an is quite clear that he felt to prostrate before Adam was beneath him. We are told that Iblees said "You [Allah] created me [Iblees] from fire, and him from clay" [7:12 and also 38:76]. This was why he rebelled against God's order.

I did not mean to imply that the Qur'an in book form is not worthy of respect. I have tried to emphasis that it did not come to us as a book from heaven, although it did later on come in a single volume. It came to Muhammad through a voice, he recited that which was given to him, the Muslims wrote it down, they memorized it, they used it in prayer and other rituals.

I have tried to show that the Mus-haf is our effort to preserve that Divine revelation. To say that the numbers used in the numberings of the verses etc.. are not only wrong but an unwarranted innovation is also to say that the Faatihah, for example, which is usually decorated with gold and other beautiful detail [especially Qur'ans printed in India, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia], should not be decorated as such, and that it is better to take those decorations away.

I have tried to convey that such a view is actually not very weighty, but if someone would not agree with that, they could easily print the Qur'an as they see fit. Some people believe green is an Islamic color, many of our books are in green binding, many mosques have green carpets or calligraphy on its walls, etc.. but that is just a manner of personal style and taste.

If you really feel this strongly about the numbers, you could print your own Mus-haf with the numbers as you see fit, you could publish books in which your ideas could be given full expression, and see if the Muslim world takes your views under consideration. I have the feeling that if you did take such actions, it would produce great conversations among the believers.





S.Waheed

Salaamun Aleykum
Dear Mr Shamsuddin Waheed,

You are the first person to understand my ideas. Now that I found you, you can not run and hide from me so easily. Your surname is Waheed, you must not be gray, you must be white or black, so please give one answer to my following questions.

1) Is mus-haf important?
a) Yes
b) No

2) Please answer my shortest IQ test.

3) Since Allah is 1, what number you assign creatures?
a) 0
b) Else

4) Which one must be on the right?
a) 1
b) 0

5) Are the numbers in Qur'anul Kareem Mus-haf right?
a) Wrong
b) Right

6) Should we fix the numbers in the Mus-haf?
a) Yes
b) No

Thank you for answering them in advance.

Yours Sincerely
veyselicnumbers (Veysel Peru)

Walaikumus salaam...

Well, I'm glad that I have understood what exactly you are attempting to convey. From your statement, am I to assume that you have been telling people about your views on the number system for a while? Believe me, when it comes to the Qur'an, the word of God the most high, I don't run away. I don't know everything, but nonetheless I make efforts to understand the message of Islam, from many possible different angles.

Now, to answer your questions, [1] Of course the Mus-haf is important. [2] I feel that I should not "assign" numbers to creation, as the Qur'an has not really done so. [3] The numbers, or rather the sequence in which they are written, are a function of language. In Arabic, the numbers are written from left to right, as they are written in English as well. In the past, before the introduction of the Arabic numerals, [or more accurately the Indian numerals ] The West used Roman numerals. I, II,III, IV, and so forth. The West adopted the Arabic numbers as an easier alternative to the Roman ones.

If the system you propose is more efficient, that's fine. Perhaps I am not the one to judge, as I am not a mathematician or a scientist. It seems you are proposing a methodological change, but to do you, that should, in my view, be for the entire language and such, not limited to the Qur'an. As to questions five and six, I think you already know my views. I simply have yet to be convinced that these changes are really needed and important to understanding the Qur'anic message.

Regards,

S.Waheed

Salamun alaikum,

I have just finished reading exchanges between brother 'Junior Member (JM) and br. Waheed. I must acknowledge my ignorance of the point that br. JM is trying to make despite my (some) interest in mathematics. I am just not convinced that we do have a real compelling need of a paradigm shift in the way the Qur’anic page numbers are ordered, or that the new idea warrants a radical change in the way we think about mathematical numbering system. I doubt that, if implemented, it will have any major impact on how the Qur’anic message about the “ the right and the left” is understood by those who hearts are in the right place. We use numbers only for our own convenience and effective communication; these are just the terms, phrases and words of the language we use on a daily basis—something that serves as a means of communication for us. I, for example, understand the Qur'an primarily from my own mother tongue (Urdu) and then the language I have spent a good deal of time learning (English). And I believe I got what I wanted even though I am not adept at the Qur'anic language which is Arabiyyun mubeen. I do feel a lot of thirst for Arabic but that is because I think it is extremely important if I wish to understand the Word of God ‘in depth’—to satisfy my ‘higher’ and deeper curiosities.
The “numbers” are fascinating, though. Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian Qur’anic scholar (and Biochemistry Professor at Tucson, US) had to lose his life in 1991 because of his obsession with the “Code 19”. He had to take out two verses (9:128,129) of the Qur’an and dismiss them as false because he could only ‘fit’ his Code 19 in the Qur’an in the absence of these verses. And he had a pretty good story about these verses to tell as well. I tried to wade through his mind and try to see the rational motives behind his Code 19 theory which he called “a truly novel and undiscovered miracle” but I must admit I could not see eye to eye with him on his Code fully even though his Code did seem to fit to some extent in the Qur’an. He was so obsessed with the idea that he thought he was the “Messenger of the Covenant” prophesied in 3:81.
So I would not talk about Math br. JM is putting forward here because I have not been able to bring myself to the point where his arguments could compel me to think why this “fix” should is absolutely necessary.
Now concerning some other things being discussed here….I think Allah never said that we should eat with the right hand or that the follower of the imam in the Salat should stand close but at the right side of the imam during prayer—and many other minute details found in tradtional ‘fiqh’ books that I believe detract from the major impact of the Message. I think God is far beyond getting into petty issues of the left and the right. The words “right hand” and the “left hand”, in my humble view, carry usual the significance in almost all languages and Allah does speak OUR language, not His language—so that we can understand.
I think the Qur’anic language is a human language—hence it is mostly metaphorical in God’s domain. I don’t believe God has hands like ours, or has eyes ,or ears, or heart, or nafs like the rest of us but He appears to say that he does. He does say that His BOTH hands are outstretched contrary to the Jews’ assertion that His hand was tied (5:64). To me, “the hand/hands” is clearly metaphorical/allegorical, telling me that Allah has power as well as a “big heart” and is infinitely powerful as well as generous and not miserly. Similarly, He talks about His “Nafs”—Does He really have a “nafs” just like all of us do? Does he have a right hand? I think Allah is speaking OUR language when He is talking to us through the Qur’an. If we start assigning physicality to His Grace, we will soon end up being painted to a corner because He has told us that “there is nothing like unto Him!”. Similarly, His descriptions of the Paradise and the Hell are given in a human language because that is the language we can hope to understand. He does make it clear to us, though, that His descriptions of Paradise and Hell are only allegorical (mathal) and make a part of the “Mutashabihaat” verses (3:7).
Now I do have a few questions of my own:
1. Who was/is Iblis? From many verses of the Qur’anic, it seems clear that he was an angel because only the angels were commanded by God to prostrate before Adam. He did not say “…..said to angels and Iblis” but only angels. So there is no question in my mind that Iblis was an angel. And angels do whatever they are told in general but then the Qur’an does tell us that there are exceptions in almost everything. Iblis was an exception who thought he was superior to man because he was fashioned out of fire rather than the meager and lowly clay. He will be punished for his haughtiness come the DOJ.
I am aware of the 18:50 which says “Kaana min al-Jinni” which is usually translated as “he was from among the Jinn”. But I think there could be a translation problem here for the verb “Kaana” which could also mean “became” rather than “was”. There are some other verses from the Qur’an as well where “kaana” has always been translated as “became”—so why not 18:50?
2. The following question is more serious and I must admit I have no clue as to how should I understand it. I would appreciate some help here: “Allah has used the word “li-na’alama or na’lama” which apparently means “so that We may know who is….please see verses 2:143, 18:12, 34:21, 47:31”. We know that Allah is the Allam al-Ghuyub (All -knower of the Hidden), He is the Knower of the Past, Present and the Future, yet why does he use the phrase “so that we may know who is…..”. Does He really not know until…..something happens?
I think I will have to say a few words about the “Book/kitaab” as well but it is getting a bit late at night and my fingers are telling on my tendons…

Wassalam,
Fauq

My reply may be simple and quick... but wow... this is so confusing. Why does it really matter... The numbering system is fine... it does not really change anything for me when I read Quran...

Not to dirgress from the discussion at hand, but your comments about--- or your own understanding of--- the Qur'anic "li na'lama" (so that We may know....) as I mentioned in my earlier post will be appreciated.

Fauq

You are correct in your description of the phrase Kaana. In actuality, the context should be examined to determine the meanings of these sort of phrases. Kaana literally means "he was" and can also be used to mean "he is". One example is Innahu Kaana Tawwaba [ Surely, he is always turning [to his servants to accept their repentance]. We cannot think of Kaana here in a past tense, but rather a present tense.

A small number of traditional commentators have said that Satan was an Angel. I tend to believe this is due to Judeo-Christian influence. They don't have a concept of jinn in their religions, at least not as far as I know. This now goes into the question of what exactly is a Jinn. That seems to have been answered by Satan [Iblees] himself, as narrated in the Qur'an, Khalaqtani min Naarin wa Khalaqtahu min Teen "You [Allah] have created me from fire, and created him [Adam] from clay" [7:12]. The same description has not been given for the angels in the Qur'an, so I would have to agree with the majority consensus that Ibless is said to have been created from fire, a hot and consuming nature.

Very intriguing question. Judging from the context of all the verse you have cited, it appears that the meaning is not that God will "come to know" but rather that the particular people spoken of will be exposed for their belief, or for their ability [as in 18:12 and 47:31].

The latter verse 47:31 has reminded me of a work recently published, of which I made contributions in examining the phrases Fitnah, Imtihaan and Bala', as given in the Qur'an. This work is called The language of revelation. To order it, feel free to pm or e-mail me. I believe it will be of great help in understanding Quranic concepts.

Regards,

S.Waheed